207 RC ECU reprogram

par **salex** » 01 Janvier 2009, 09:58

Hi everybody and have a happy new year!

The problem mentioned, regarding stock blowoff valves that leak is very common in tuned 207s.

You should be able to detect it because of the following symptoms:
1. Engine looses top end power. You still get overboost but no power on high revs.
2. Eventually you get zero boost when the diaphragm is ripped.

You can have a look at how you can upgrade your stock blowoff valve to a VAG tfsi (from Audi S3 2.0tfsi or Seat Leon Cupra 2.0TFSI or VW Golf V GTI tfsi)

http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/techn ... dexen.html

These blowoff valves have upgraded internal parts because they have to withstand more than 1.2bars of boost. Specially their silicone diaphragm is a lot better than our own. Have a look at the photos and you will see what I mean.

There is an easier way to upgrade only a few parts of the stock blowoff valve, I will upload a photos in the next couple of days.

par **bibo207RC** » 01 Janvier 2009, 12:07

Salex, thank you for the helpful information.

As mentioned in my post my car is boosting 14.5 psi ( 1 bar ) for a second in third gear and then the boost drops immediately to 10 psi ( 0.69 bar ) which is pretty low for an RC 175 bhp.

I don't know if my Dump Valve is leaking or my ECU is not liking something and allowing limited boost.

What do you think ? Is there a way to know ?

Also why do you recommend the VAG BOV and not the Forge one ?

par **salex** » 01 Janvier 2009, 19:16

bibo207RC a écrit:Salex, thank you for the helpful information.

As mentioned in my post my car is boosting 14.5 psi ( 1 bar ) for a second in third gear and then the boost drops immediately to 10 psi ( 0.69 bar ) which is pretty low for an RC 175 bhp.

I don't know if my Dump Valve is leaking or my ECU is not liking something and allowing limited boost.

What do you think ? Is there a way to know ?

Also why do you recommend the VAG BOV and not the Forge one ?

Hi Bibo,

Yes you are right, 0.69bars is almost stock boost for a 207 RC.
The reason I am recommending the VAG blowoff valve is because it is an actual upgrade for the stock blowoff valve.

Forge does NOT produce blowoff valves for the 1.6THP. What Forge sells as a blowoff valve is a spacer that makes noise because it leaks air to the atmosphere.

If you install a Forge spacer it will not repair your leaking blowoff valve. It will just make things worse.
You need to change the whole part (or at least the diaphragm) so that you get the boost you used to have.

Another thing that you should check is your spark plugs. When the spark plugs get fouled, you get many boost related problems - specially at overboost.
Because of too much knocking the ECU automatically lowers boost.

Specially for the 207RC, on hot summer days, specially once you manage to warm up your intercooler (>60degrees C) you will get lower boost because the ECU will compensate for the rise in intake air temperature.

Although I have not had the time to write the article in English, have a look:
http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/techn ... index.html

These are my old spark plugs (30.000km) compared to brand new. Too much wear!

With the old sparkplugs I had performance problems because at overboost I would get boost cuts. And all this because of the worn sparkplugs.

par **gilou panizzi** » 01 Janvier 2009, 22:09

Salex you are really great !! Thanks for this , I will try tomorow to get a VAG bov. where could I find the hareness adapter?? and if you can give me some references for the new spark plug it would be very nice! thanks a lot and happy new year!!!

par **bibo207RC** » 02 Janvier 2009, 01:30

Hi Salex,

Isn't the Forge BOV installed before the stock dump valve ? so it basically deletes the stock dump valve ?

Anyway thanks for the info, will try to change the spark plugs and see if it helps.

Here's a video of my 3rd gear run from 3500 to 6500 rpm :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9u7tnrzniM
choose " watch in high quality " on the bottom right of the movie.

par **Jéjé** » 02 Janvier 2009, 01:46

The boost gauge takes place :oops:

.

par **gilou panizzi** » 02 Janvier 2009, 03:46

I have just verified and my bov diaphragm is totally out of order, I even found a piece of "something" that I couldn't describe in the hole! Moreover, I lost the little spring inside the bov...So I have no other choice but to get another...hoping that one of VAG garage will have the item in stock.

Where can I find this harness adapter? I'm searching on every websites but still in vain...

par **salex** » 02 Janvier 2009, 14:10

gilou panizzi a écrit:I have just verified and my bov diaphragm is totally out of order, I even found a piece of "something" that I couldn't describe in the hole! Moreover, I lost the little spring inside the bov...So I have no other choice but to get another...hoping that one of VAG garage will have the item in stock.

Where can I find this harness adapter? I'm searching on every websites but still in vain...

Hi gilou,

No worries, the harness adapter can be constructed. It does not exist as an actual part from any manufacturer because it combines group PSA plugs to group VAG plugs :-)

.

But there is an easier option for you.

Your BOV can be disassembled. The diaphragm, the spring etc are parts that can come off.

You can swap them with the parts from the VAG BOV.
The VAG BOV has a stiffer spring, better diaphragm and fits perfectly in the Peugeot BOV. Because the same company produces them (Pierburg).

The only thing that you will miss is the coil, for which you need to manufacture a harness adapter. I will give you more information on that later (it is very easy to make a harness adapter), because there is a plug from Peugeot that I do not have a number from!

Salut!

par **gilou panizzi** » 02 Janvier 2009, 15:00

Thanks Salex! I'm gonna look for this bov today. We stay in touch!

par **tiranor** » 02 Janvier 2009, 19:18

Great bunch of informations guys, thanks a lot for all those inputs

par **gilou panizzi** » 02 Janvier 2009, 22:25

Hi everybody, My new dump valve is set and it works!! I had the default code, but it has been removed by one of my friend, then everything is alright§ the new noise "pshit" is very amazing! Thanks a lot!!!!!! Now I'm waiting for any news you could have about those ngk spark plugs and.... this stage 4 I saw on your website with a 250 hp crank !!! Is it real my friend???!

I can't translate but if you can tell me about the modifications to do so as to reach this power I'm interested...

par **bibo207RC** » 03 Janvier 2009, 01:09

gilou panizzi a écrit:Hi everybody, My new dump valve is set and it works!! I had the default code, but it has been removed by one of my friend, then everything is alright§ the new noise "pshit" is very amazing! Thanks a lot!!!!!! Now I'm waiting for any news you could have about those ngk spark plugs and.... this stage 4 I saw on your website with a 250 hp crank !!! Is it real my friend???! I can't translate but if you can tell me about the modifications to do so as to reach this power I'm interested...

Great news, so what have you done ? did u change the whole thing or just the internals ?

Also how did u get the parts so quickly ? :unsure:

and which VAG BOV did you get ?

par **bibo207RC** » 03 Janvier 2009, 01:54

Hi salex,

Do you have any experience with removing cats ? If I do it how will the ECU react ? warning lights ? reduce power ?

Thanks

par **salex** » 03 Janvier 2009, 10:11

bibo207RC a écrit:Hi salex,

Do you have any experience with removing cats ? If I do it how will the ECU react ? warning lights ? reduce power ?

Thanks

Hey guys, thank you for your compliments

.
Bibo, I am not really sure why you would like to remove your cat. You see the car is not the real bottleneck for your engine's performance. The real bottleneck is the turbine, exhaust side, which is too small to flow too much exhaust gas. So after a certain point, any tuner might raise boost but your engine's horsepower will stay the same.

Performance gains from a decat exhaust system are not really much unless you are already tuned at maximum power and there are severe flow problems because of it.

First thing that will happen, once your lambda sensors realize there is no cat, is that you will get a Check Engine Light (antipollution fault) for catalyst aging.

You might also get an overboost CEL (=the ECU will drop you in safe mode with 0.5bars boost :cry:

) if your car gets more overboost because of the decat exhaust, unless the ECU is tuned for it.
To overcome this, there are some rear lambda spacers, that make the sensor believe there is still a cat on the car.

Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TF-CEL-f ... arQ5fParts

or this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Test-Pip ... arQ5fParts

I have not tested them myself yet, but they should do the job.

Most RC/Gt/GTi 1.6THP have an overboost limit at 1.28bars and most tuning companies don't know how to get rid of it.

I think it would be wise to ask your tuner if you can remove the cat without having problems.

par **bibo207RC** » 03 Janvier 2009, 11:07

salex a écrit:Bibo, I am not really sure why you would like to remove your cat.

Thanks again for the useful information as usual , so do you work in the tuning business ?

Milltek exhausts were able to squeeze a healthy 27 bhp from the Mini Cooper S by changing the exhaust including hi flow cat, the majority of the power increase comes from the hi-flow cat.

I know 27 bhp is too much from just an exhaust but it was tested by an independent magazine.

Now hi flow cats are very expensive and still restricts exhaust flow to a certain extent, so why get it if I can remove it completely for much less money and get even more exhaust flow.

I am concerned as the ECU uses the lambda sensors to make it calculations so if I fooled the sensors with the spacers i am afraid it would damage the engine, but the 207 has 2 sensors one before the cat and the other after, I am guessing that the 1st one is which the ECU uses to make it calculations air/fuel, temp , etc... and the 2nd sensor is just to measure emissions and make sure the cat is ok, correct ? so if I put the spacer on the 2nd sensor it won't do any harm ?

Why do THP engines have a limit of 1.28 bar, is it because of the turbine size ? Dump Valve ?

Regards

par **salex** » 03 Janvier 2009, 20:37

bibo207RC a écrit:Thanks again for the useful information as usual , so do you work in the tuning business ?

Yes, indeed.

Milltek exhausts were able to squeeze a healthy 27 bhp from the Mini Cooper S by changing the exhaust including hi flow cat, the majority of the power increase comes from the hi-flow cat.

I have yet to see a Mini Cooper S R56 or Peugeot 207 RC with this kind of power gains because of the exhaust, proven on a dyno. Not on a German dyno, with ISO correction. I doubt if even half of this power gain is actually attainable by just installing an exhaust.

I know 27 bhp is too much from just an exhaust but it was tested by an independent magazine.

Please don't call me biased, magazines make their living from providing advertisements. Companies pay them, to show their work. Most times they exaggerate to make a product look more effective then it actually is. Whether that be a tuning upgrade, exhaust, intake or whatever.

That is how the industry works today and I am very sorry that we are part of it.

Now hi flow cats are very expensive and still restricts exhaust flow to a certain extent, so why get it if I can remove it completely for much less money and get even more exhaust flow.

Hi flow cats are not that expensive nowadays. Removing your cat is unhealthy for the people around you and illegal in Europe. So why remove it totally when you can get a free flow cat for a dime. Check ebay for magnaflow cats.

I am concerned as the ECU uses the lambda sensors to make it calculations so if I fooled the sensors with the spacers i am afraid it would damage the engine, but the 207 has 2 sensors one before the cat and the other after, I am guessing that the 1st one is which the ECU uses to make it calculations air/fuel, temp , etc... and the 2nd sensor is just to measure emissions and make sure the cat is ok, correct ? so if I put the spacer on the 2nd sensor it won't do any harm ?

The front oxygen sensor is a wideband sensor that verifies air/fuel ratio. It is responsible to compensate when the engine goes too lean or too rich and to provide a closed loop AFR function.
The rear sensor is narrowband and it exists only to check the condition of the catalyst. So if you put a space on the 2nd sensor you will have no problems.

Why do THP engines have a limit of 1.28 bar, is it because of the turbine size ? Dump Valve ?

It is just their factory software made that way for safety reasons. And it is a tuner's job to correct it to whatever he wishes.

Because it is difficult to modify, most ECU upgrades in the market don't really have much overboost (or no overboost at all) at midrevs.

par **gilou panizzi** » 03 Janvier 2009, 21:44

bibo207RC a écrit:Great news, so what have you done ? did u change the whole thing or just the internals ?

Also how did u get the parts so quickly ? and which VAG BOV did you get ?

;
I changed the whole bov, and I've taken one from a 2.0 tfsi but not the Audi S3 model. I just went in a VAG garage and it was the last bov left in stock!! Now my 230 ch ecu remap feels really good, it's time to change the brake system because the stock appears extremelly "just"!

Salex what about the 250 ch stage? Is already done on one of your testing car?

par **bibo207RC** » 04 Janvier 2009, 02:10

Salex, thanks for trying to help everyone here.
here's the exhaust article maybe you'd want to read it :
http://www.millteksport.com/media/images/press/28.pdf

Gilou, you changed the whole BOV ? what have u done with the harness thing ?

par **gilou panizzi** » 04 Janvier 2009, 03:27

Yes the whole part was changed. The plug adaptation was however very simple, I didn't cut anything and just stuck the cables together in order to make the link. It will be improved when I am able to. The different plug we could see on Salex website were not available unfortunately! So I did a "home made" installation! Everything works that is main!

par **salex** » 04 Janvier 2009, 11:13

Guys, in case you are looking for the VAG parts to make the adapter, I have attached a photo showing the two separate vag parts that I used:

The left plastic bag was for the plug, the right was for the cables that go inside it. In Greece they cost about 9Euros in total. I had to order the plug because it was not available at the Audi dealership I use.

Don't worry about the BOV, most vag bovs nowadays are updated (and have the same part numner) so it does not matter if you get one from a Golf V, Audi A3, Seat Leon tfsi or Skoda Octavia V RS tfsi. All TFSI vag bovs fit, it is just the newer ones are more reliable.

BTW gilou, have you noticed how much boost you get now at high revs?

The 250+hp project is ongoing, there are many things missing before we are ready. More testing for sure.
For this kind of serious horsepower there are many questions to be answered regarding the reliability and strength of engine components like pistons and connecting rods. And there are big headaches on fueling, mainly concerning the high pressure fuel pump.

I will let you know when we are sure about the results. It would be very irresponsible to go ahead and start braking people's engines just because we raised boost with a big turbo without taking precautions...

par **bibo207RC** » 04 Janvier 2009, 11:32

salex a écrit:For this kind of serious horsepower there are many questions to be answered regarding the reliability and strength of engine components like pistons and connecting rods.

That's exactlly my thoughts, remember when Mini raised the power in the JCW to 205 bhp they changed the pistons and revised the cylinder head, you have to stop and wonder why they did this there must be a reason.

par **salex** » 04 Janvier 2009, 12:29

bibo207RC a écrit:That's exactlly my thoughts, remember when Mini raised the power in the JCW to 205 bhp they changed the pistons and revised the cylinder head, you have to stop and wonder why they did this there must be a reason.

For sure, there must be a reason for everything. There is still a lot of speculation, even regarding the differences between EP6-DT and EP6-DTS (apart from the larger turbo).

Until today we have tuned and tested 2 cars (207 1.6thp - 150hp), which seem to be doing really well with over 240hp. But at 240hp they are not too much faster than a 207 RC with intake, exhaust and a good ECU remap.

Anyways, I have uploaded a disassembly guide for your blowoff valves!
Have a look. This is the easy way to upgrade your blowoff valve to VAG without changing the cover or needing the harness adapter.

http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/techn ... syway.html

par **bibo207RC** » 04 Janvier 2009, 13:07

salex a écrit:even regarding the differences between EP6-DT and EP6-DTS (apart from the larger turbo)

What's EP6-DT and EP6-DTS ? is it THP150 and THP175 ?
I wonder what will Peugeot change in the engine internals of the 308 RCZ with 218 bhp.

salex a écrit:Anyways, I have uploaded a disassembly guide for your blowoff valves!

I think you should charge us for the information you are providing

btw did you look into my boost gauge video ? do you think my boost readings is ok for a stock RC ? any sign of dump valve leakage ?
here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9u7tnrzniM
choose "watch in high quality" from the bottom right of the video

par **salex** » 04 Janvier 2009, 16:13

bibo207RC a écrit:I think you should charge us for the information you are providing

Things like this make a tuner's life easy. Because it is all our fault when a car stops performing as it should.

btw did you look into my boost gauge video ? do you think my boost readings is ok for a stock RC ? any sign of dump valve leakage ?
here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9u7tnrzniM
choose "watch in high quality" from the bottom right of the video

I see no problem with your boost. It is exactly as it should be for a stock RC. 1bar overboost, 0.7bars constant pressure to the rev limiter.
In the summertime you might get a little more boost because the ECU compensates for the hot weather. In the wintertime you get a little less boost because of cold.

par **bibo207RC** » 04 Janvier 2009, 16:27

salex a écrit:I see no problem with your boost. It is exactly as it should be for a stock RC. 1bar overboost, 0.7bars constant pressure to the rev limiter.
In the summertime you might get a little more boost because the ECU compensates for the hot weather. In the wintertime you get a little less boost because of cold.

It only hit 1 bar for a second and then drops immediately to 0.7 bar, I thought it should hold 1 bar in 3rd gear (overboost) all the way to the rev limiter.
so what's the benefit of overboost if I can use it for only 1 second ?
But if you say it's ok I trust you

BTW I sent my ECU to a tuner in France for a remap and he told me it's the new ECU and cannot be tuned

Also my car acceleration is not consistent at all, sometimes it pulls very hard and sometimes not at all.

par **salex** » 04 Janvier 2009, 21:25

bibo207RC a écrit:It only hit 1 bar for a second and then drops immediately to 0.7 bar, I thought it should hold 1 bar in 3rd gear (overboost) all the way to the rev limiter.
so what's the benefit of overboost if I can use it for only 1 second ?
But if you say it's ok I trust you

BTW I sent my ECU to a tuner in France for a remap and he told me it's the new ECU and cannot be tuned

Also my car acceleration is not consistent at all, sometimes it pulls very hard and sometimes not at all.

Overboost is only supposed to stay in for 1 or 2 seconds. Not more.
That is why you don't see it. After all, if your 1.6T engine had 1bar at the rev limiter, you would have 190hp instead of 175!

Since your RC is new, your ECU is one of the newer versions that have a Tricore 1766 (with internal memory) instead of a Tricore 1796 (with external memory).
It can be remapped, we have done 3 RCs with this ECU.

The newer ECUs are installed in all models produced after August 2008.

par **bibo207RC** » 04 Janvier 2009, 21:42

salex a écrit:The newer ECUs are installed in all models produced after August 2008.

yes that's what the tuner told me and he was shocked as my car is MY2008 production late 2007, he couldn't beleive it and told me noway this new ECU installed in production 2007 car.

I stayed 20 days without a car and at the end the ECU came back without being tuned

par **movistar69** » 05 Janvier 2009, 09:46

I've got one question: about the BOV, for the JCW Mini.
It makes 208hp. So, which BOV do they use?
It could be interesting to wonder if there is a specific BOV for the JCW Mini.

Other question: is it really possible to fit the Mini intercooler?
On the Sotiris pictures, it is an Alta I.C

How does he makes the air pipes routing? If you can help me, please!
Because it's exactelly what I want to do on my 207 THP150, Forge I.C is too expensive! :eek:

Alta one costs 479$!

par **bibo207RC** » 05 Janvier 2009, 10:26

movistar69 a écrit:Other question: is it really possible to fit the Mini intercooler?
On the Sotiris pictures, it is an Alta I.C

How does he makes the air pipes routing? If you can help me, please!
Because it's exactelly what I want to do on my 207 THP150, Forge I.C is too expensive!
Alta one costs 479$!

to be honest i am a bit skeptic about claimed IC huge gains.

I've driven my car last summer in 40 degrees and now it's around 10 degrees, that's a difference of 30 degrees and i can't feel so much difference in performance.

par **salex** » 05 Janvier 2009, 19:33

Intercooler upgrade is a big MUST for RCs and a very good idea for 150thp.

I don't know if this is the relevant topic, but I can show you logs from summer driving with tuned cars and the intake air temperature was just too high.

So yes, there is a huge performance gain with an ic upgrade. No intercooler from Mini Cooper S fits our 207 because the piping is very different.

However, you can use the Seat Ibiza Cupra intercooler, which is a part designed by Seat Sport and fits our 207 without too much hassle.
It costs around 340Euros from a Seat dealership, but is really well made and much better than any custom fit intercooler I have seen until today.

Have a look!

More info at
http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/techn ... dexen.html

207 RC ECU reprogram

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